Internet Mormons, Chapel Mormons, and Unity amongst the Saints.

*This is a continuation from a thread at MADB,

Nuku'alofa, Tonga Temple

A place where the Saints are united with each other and with God.

Internet vs. Chapel Mormons

This specific terminology was introduced by a critic of Mormonism, Jason Gallentine, who identifies himself as "Dr. Shades."1

Examples of distinction:

1. Chapel Mormons will typically try and bend the facts to fit the prophets, while Internet Mormons are far more comfortable bending the prophets to fit the facts.
2. When the apologists contradict the prophets, Internet Mormons almost always go with the apologists, while Chapel Mormons almost always go with the prophets.
3. Internet Mormons believe that the words "Lamanite" and "Native American" refer to two entirely separate cultural and linguistic groups. Chapel Mormons believe that the words "Lamanite" and "Native American" are interchangeable.
4. Internet Mormons believe that Noah's flood was a localized event, covering only a certain area. Chapel Mormons usually believe that Noah's flood was a global event, covering the entire world.
5. Internet Mormons believe the Lehite colony landed in a New World filled with Asiatic inhabitants. Chapel Mormons believe the Lehite colony landed in a New World devoid of inhabitants save, perhaps, for at least one remaining Jaredite.
6. When discussing prophetic utterances, Internet Mormons often say "it was only his opinion." Chapel Mormons almost never say "it was only his opinion," believing that a prophet's words and God's words are essentially one and the same. 2

I'm sure you get the idea. This topic has been done to death on message boards and on blogs. But for me, this line of thinking has lead me contemplate something completely tangential. Or perhaps what I've been pondering is the central issue and all else is tangential.

Generally "Chapel Mormons" are not even aware that these labels exist. Internet Mormons resist these labels primarily because Dr. Shades (an Anti-Mormon) coined the phrases. I think absent the labels, most Mormons will admit to very "blurry" lines of distinction within our personal beliefs.

I wrote in the MADB thread:

I don't have a problem with...blurry lines of distinction. The days of orthodox literalism is shifting, IMO. I absolutely think that as scientific or historical information becomes available that may challenge our current theological paradigms, Internet Mormons are more likely to entertain the implications; whereas ...Chapel Mormon[s] may bristle to know the Earths age is approx 4.5 billion years old and is not pieces of other old Earths put together.

One does not need to be one or the other. But I don't have a problem with a loose distinction for conversations sake.

My method concerning the acquisition of truth is that...when there seems to be a question regarding something that has previously been confirmed by the Holy Spirit, then there is no question whatever about it. However, if I'm seeking truth that has not been confirmed or revealed by God, then it will come by study and by faith. And I will stay that course until the Spirit bestows further light and knowledge, and my testimony is increased.

I'm rambling now, but here is the thrust of my musings. Despite all of our minor differences we are all Saints. And despite a healthy discussion of the age of the Earth; or biological evolution; or DNA and the Book of Mormon, we remain united in a covenant relationship with God and with each other.

"He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another" (3 Nephi 11:29)

And to our dispensation God declared:

"I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine." (D&C 38:27)

I could write twenty pages on this single concept. The Temple is where I have learned more about this idea than any other place. But let's look at the Book of Mormon for a moment:

[1]...and behold they [a multitude of Saints] had fallen to the earth, for the fear of the Lord had come upon them.

[2] And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.

[3] And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.

[4] And king Benjamin again opened his mouth and began to speak unto them, saying: My friends and my brethren, my kindred and my people...(Mosiah 4: 1-4)

This was both an individual and collective experience. United in heart and purpose, vocally they cried out and made a covenant with God. They were truly kindred people. They had taken the name of Christ upon themselves and were washed clean, they had joy and peace of conscience.

Now, does this mean they were a Borg like collective conscience void of any differences or distinctions? I would say no. I don't know why we have this incredible zeal to label each other with a one dimensional category?

Think for an instance why we have so many varied talents and blessings.

11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby. (D&C 46)

What a wonderful thing it is that there is so much variety within the Church. And how wonderful it is that we are able to take those talents that we are blessed with and dedicate them, along with those of our brothers and sisters in the Gospel, to the building up of the Kingdom of God.

So may I simply say thanks to Dr. Shades! Thank you for identifying two of the most beautiful shades amongst the spectrum of colors that is Mormonism.

Am I an Internet Mormon?

Am I a Chapel Mormon?

Am I much more than the aggregate of the two?

Yes!

Big UP!

The Lamanite



1. F.A.I.R. Wiki article.
2. Anti-Mormon site

Robert A. Rees: The Goodness Of The Church, Dialogue: Vol. 41, No. 2 pg 172

Julian the Apostate
I'm sure it had something to do with his subscription to
Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought

Recently I was added to the Mormon Blogosphere aggregator. The wonderful part about the addition is that my blog was added to the "Liberal/Fringe elements" category, lol. So to celebrate- I thought I would add a special Dialogue post celebrating the deficiencies within the institution of the Church.

I'm just kidding, but this is a damn good essay by Rees. I'm only commenting on the last two paragraphs, but the whole essay is fantastic, IMO.

QUOTE
"...Like any institution managed by humans, the Mormon Church is less than perfect..."

Now, everyone in the Church will concede this point. It's obvious that that imperfect men and women will make mistakes in the operation of the Church and the preaching of the Gospel. It is to be expected.

However, no one appreciates a list of the imperfections, and often will vehemently oppose the allegations.

Imperfections, "both in its teachings and its practice. The extent to which the Church reflects values and perpetuates policies and practices that are too hierarchical, patriarchal, sexist, anti-intellectual, racist, homophobic, and protective off its own image, it diminishes its power to be a force for goodness."

If the above assertions are baseless and false, then what imperfections are we talking about? Surely no one can make a case for an infallible Prophet, nor can they make the case for infallible Apostles, Stake Presidents, Bishops, et al. There are small and major policy and procedural mistakes, both past and present, but I think we are moving in the right direction. But there has always been hope and promises that despite our screw ups the Church will move forward like the rock cut out of the Mountain without hands.

Nevertheless, as it is a "living" and therefore potentially evolving institution, we can hope that its evolution is progressive rather regressive. It is the stewardship of all the leaders and the members to ensure that it is, and this means facing honestly those things about the Church that are not reflective of the gospel of Christ as well as acknowledging and affirming those that are.

We, the imperfect, are left to govern ourselves the best we can. The ideal situation is that we will act appropriately and in conjunction with God's will. But that's an ideal, not a reality. When we stray from the course, I'm sure there will be those that lovingly bring us back to the straight and narrow. I know that quorum of the Twelve operates in a very similar fashion. (See, Rise of Modern Mormonism, Prince), and so should we.

"So, while there are things that are wrong with the Church, there is much that is right with it. Finally, what is right with it is that it is one of few places where we can find holiness, where we can find manifestations of God's abundant love and his amazing grace. Not always, but often. And in an increasingly unholy world, this is no small thing. It is, I believe for the possibility of finding such holiness that the Lord created His church, that He commands us to be engaged in its mission, and that He invites us to partake of its blessings. It is partly out of hope that I will find such holiness and perhaps in my small way make holiness happen for myself and others that I continue to go to Church."

I feel much the same way. It is a place of refuge amidst a ver large and looming storm covering the earth. I found God within a Christian/Mormon context. Idevelop that relationship within the same context. Mormonism is a place for me to serve and love and increase my Discipleship. I make sacred covenants with God and renew them weekly, and believe me I need it. I find forgiveness and Peace within this Church. And although the world has its counterfeits, it can never offer Peace and Forgiveness in its purest forms as our Father does.

"And, in spite off occasional disagreements with practice or policy, in spite of occasional frustration and hurt, and in spite of the weekly challenges of being a liberal, intellectual Latter-day Saint in a conservative, often anti-intellectual church community, because of my wish for the Church as it is to be more like the Church as it should be and because off a lifelong experience of finding love and goodness there, I give the Church my allegiance and devotion, not mindlessly but mindfully, and with full heart and voice."(bold mine)

The thing I appreciate most is that he's completely honest about his loves, his concerns, and his complete devotion. Contrary to some beliefs, one can be a critic of the institution of the Church and as orthodox and devoted as anyone else.

From "Faith of an Observer- Conversations with Hugh Nibley":

"There have been some things said about Brigham Youn University by others, non of them are as painfully citical as what Nibley occasionally says, and the same goes for certain aspects of the Church, institutionally speaking. He really is its gadfly critic..Is he a cynic and pessimist, with all kinds of negative things to say? Yes. Is he an optimist, an idealist, with great hope for the future? Yes. Some would say you can't get those together. He does."

I'd like to think I can too.


Big UP!

Lamanite

Joseph B. Wirthlin - In Memoriam

SALT LAKE CITY 2 December 2008 Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, the oldest living apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, died last night, age 91.

Elder Wirthlin had gone to bed at his Salt Lake City home, and died peacefully at about 11:30 pm of causes incident to age. His oldest daughter, Jane Wirthlin Parker, was present. A member of the family had been staying and caring for Elder Wirthlin, whose wife, Elisa Young Rogers Wirthlin, died in 2006.

He had continued to work at his office right up until the Thanksgiving holiday.

Funeral services will be held at noon on Friday, December 5, at the Tabernacle on Temple Square. Press Release LDS.org



In the year 2000, the Church released a DVD called Special Witnesses of Christ. The Twelve men in that DVD, were men I had come to love. I converted to the Gospel while those 12 men served. And now, more than a few have passed quietly on to something greater. Change is always difficult for me, and so I mourn the loss of another one of my "original" 12. For some reason, I always had a special affinity for Elder Wirthlin. Perhaps it was his unassuming demeanor. Or perhaps it was his gentle humility. Whatever the reason, I'm sure he will be missed by millions, and he will be missed by me.



From a conference address(Life's Lessons Learned 1997), he shares his simple yet powerful testimony:


President Gordon B. Hinckley has promised that "[Heavenly Father] will shower down blessings upon those who walk in obedience to His commandments."

I add my voice to his.

I testify that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of all mankind. I testify that God is close at hand. He cares about us and loves us, His children. Prophets, seers, and revelators guide the progress of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. President Gordon B. Hinckley stands as a latter-day prophet to the Church and to the world.

I give thanks to my Creator for this wonderful life where each of us has the opportunity to learn lessons we could not fully comprehend by any other means.

My dear brethren, may we set righteous goals and work to achieve them, do what is right, and reach out in love to those around us. This is my prayer and testimony, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.



Respect,


Lamanite

Ancient Manuscripts Fit Book of Mormon Pattern

Based on findings from the following article:

Ancient Manuscripts Fit Book of Mormon Pattern, Insights, February 1999 pg.3-4
contributed by John Gee and John A. Tvedtnes

The metal plates, which had the appearance of gold.

Looking back into time at the beginnings of Mormonism I find that almost 200yrs. allows me a very broad perspective. I think it almost impossible to separate what we know now; from what we think Joseph would have known then. We project our own hopes, disbeliefs, and agenda's onto the past almost subconsciously.

So as I was digging through old Insights trying to find a needle in a haystack, I came across this little article, that attempts to establish a pattern of ancient religious writings on metal plates:

QUOTE

"...the earliest extant manuscripts containing biblical text have the same three features that were stumbling blocks for early detractors of the Book of Mormon. One of these manuscripts was written on metal plates, onne manuscript was written in a reformed Egyptian script, and a set of manuscripts was concealed for future recovery.

"The earliest of all known manuscripts displaying biblical text was found in 1980 when archaeologists opened an ancient tomb adjacent to the Scottish Presbyterian church of St. Andrew in Jerusalem. They discovered two small rolled-up strips of silver with a Hebrew inscription of the priestly blessing found in Numbers 6:24-26. From paleographic evidence...the scrolls have been dated to the end of the seventh century B.C. or the beginning of the sixth centruy B.C.-about the time Lehi left Jerusalem." 1.

QUOTE

"The second oldest known manuscript citing a Bible text is written in Egyptian demotic script and dates to the fourth centurey B.C...it includes a quote of Psalm 20:2-6. Though the language of the text is Aramaic, the language spoken by the Jews of that time, it is not written using the Aramaic alphabet. Instead it is written in Egytian demotic, and ancient cursive script that can properly be called "reformed" Egyptian." 2.

Identifying these patterns is definitely a compelling argument. But is this proof of the historicity of the BoM, No. Is it even evidence? I'd say yes, although I'm sure some would disagree. But what seems obvious is that there is something profound about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I've tried to separate myself from the spiritual connections I have with this book and with Joseph, and I've tried to separate myself from any agenda I have in "proving" the Book of Mormon to be authentic; in an attempt at objectivity. I've looked at it from many different angles, including a strictly intellectual approach (as much as is humanly possible), and invariably I arrive at the conclusion that this is a very special man, and a very special book.

When I reintroduce the Spiritual witness I've received regarding the Divinity of Joseph's calling and the historicity of the Book of Mormon then the intellectual pursuits fade into the background and become a very mild form of Brain Candy.

So to the non-believer, I respect your declination. But what I can't understand is some of the reason's behind your unbelief. I think the best one I've heard is, "Satan inspired the whole thing and gave Joseph the power to do what he did". Honestly, that really is the best argument against the Mormon narrative, IMO. Try and reply with a list of other reasons, and Apologists will jump on it with explanations ad nauseum. And you will respond in kind. And the back and forth exchange will continue for 22 pages.

It really is a matter of study and faith. If you remove the faith, you cut your own neck, and are left only with intellectualism, and you will soon find that you have thought yourself straight down to Hell! LOL! I like a little hyperbole now and then.

Big UP!

Lamanite




1. The finds were reported by Gabriel Barkay in "The Divine Name Found in Jerusalem,"Biblical Archaeology Review 9/2 (19830:14-19; and "Priestly Blessings on Silver Plates"(in Hebrew, Cathedra 52 (1989): 46-59; see Insights (summer 1986):1

2. For a biliography o the scholarship on Papyrus Amherst 63, see John Gee in Review of books on the book of Mormon 6/1 1994: 96-97-n. 147